Transcript: Hearts of Freedom

Kim Thúy [00:00:02] Imagine a museum of the future … made up entirely of the stories we tell each other. Not the history that is captured in textbooks, but in the voices of the people who lived it. Which stories would resonate with you? Which ones do you think will last? And which will go on to shape how we live our lives, now and in the future?

[00:00:31] Welcome to Artifactuality … a podcast series featuring remarkable stories generously shared with the Canadian Museum of History. I’m your host, Kim Thúy.

[00:00:45] On this episode of Artifactuality: Hearts of Freedom.

Xay Bounnapha [00:00:52] My mind was spinning because we were in a very risky business and my family’s life depends on us. Can we trust the smuggler? What if they inform the coast guard? We will be arrested and executed.

Kim Thúy [00:01:14] The Vietnam War ended in 1975 with communist victories in Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam. But that was hardly the end of conflict in the region. What followed were a series of local wars, the reign of terror of the Khmer Rouge, harvest failures, terrible economic conditions, and the persecution of civilians. This pushed vast numbers of people to flee their homelands on dangerous, sometimes deadly, journeys.

Judy Trinh [00:01:43] I don’t know how to swim, so my mother throws me overboard and hopes that my dad will find me. And then she jumps overboard with my sister. My mother used to have nightmares every night. Recurring nightmares of that scene of tossing me overboard.

Kim Thúy [00:02:06] Xay Bounnapha and Judy Trinh came to Canada as refugees after the Vietnam War. These clips are just a few of the hundreds of stories collected for Hearts of Freedom, a multi-year community research project and travelling exhibition, which premiered at the Canadian Museum of History in February and is now travelling across Canada. Between 1975 and 1985, 100,000 refugees from Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam arrived on Canadian soil, in what was the largest refugee resettlement in Canada since World War II. I was one of those refugees. My family fled Vietnam when I was a young girl. The first leg of our journey took us in a cramped and dirty boat to a refugee camp in Malaysia. I wrote about my experience in my autobiographical novel, Ru, which means “lullaby” in Vietnamese and “a small stream” in French — the language I first learned when I came to Canada. Here’s an excerpt:

[00:03:15] During our first nights as refugees in Malaysia, we slept right on the red earth, without a floor. The Red Cross had built refugee camps in the countries adjoining Vietnam to receive the boat people—those who had survived the sea journey. The others, those who had gone down during the crossing, had no names. They died anonymously. We were among those who had been lucky enough to wash up on dry land. We felt blessed to be among the two thousand refugees in a camp that was intended to hold two hundred. We built a cabin on piles in an out-of-the-way part of the camp, on the side of a hill. For weeks, twenty-five members of five families working together, in secret, felled some trees in the nearby woods, then planted them in the soft clay soil, attached them to six plywood panels to make a large floor, and covered the frame with a canvas of electric blue, plastic blue, toy blue. We had the good fortune to find enough burlap and nylon rice bags to surround the four sides of our cabin, as well as the three sides of our shared bathroom. Together, the two structures resembled a museum installation by a contemporary artist. At night, we slept pressed so close together that we were never cold, even without a blanket.

[00:04:59] Given my own experience, I was looking forward to hearing about Hearts of Freedom. It’s a collection of oral histories from refugees who arrived in the ‘70s and ‘80s, along with Canadian officials, volunteers and sponsors. Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe is the lead curator. She’s an Associate Professor and Chair of Conflict Resolution Studies at the University of Winnipeg. She’s an expert on issues facing refugees and migrants. But she was also a refugee, born in Laos during the last years of the Vietnam War. Here she is, telling her story for the project.

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:05:43] I think one of the first memories that I have of Laos is hearing all the airplanes fly over our town, hearing all the loud noises from the bombings. One day our parents said we had to quickly go down into the basement. And in the basement they had dug out a big hole. And so whenever we would hear bombings from the airplanes above us, then they would usher us into the hole and then they would put a cover on top of us to try and protect us from the bomb blasts. And I remember my older sister and I would ask our parents, “why are we in the hole in the dark?” Because we didn’t really understand. You know, we were just a few years old.

Kim Thúy [00:06:24] Stephanie had just started kindergarten when her parents decided to leave Loas with their young family.

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:06:30] I do remember the day that we left Laos, our parents wanted to make it look like we were still living at home. So my mom did laundry and then she hung out the clothes outside. Our cars were parked outside the house. We took a small boat, more like a canoe with an engine in the back, and we said we were going to go visit my grandparents. And they lived up the river from us.

Kim Thúy [00:06:55] Stephanie’s parents hadn’t told anyone of their plan, not even her grandparents. In the early evening, they loaded their family into a boat to make their way across the Mekong River to Thailand.

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:07:08] There were soldiers on both sides of the river. The Lao soldiers were told to shoot anyone trying to leave, and the Thai soldiers were told to shoot anyone trying to land, because they didn’t want any refugees there. So it was a very dangerous situation and my mom was pregnant with my brother. So I think she was like six months pregnant. And then there was my younger sister, who must have been two years old. And then my older sister and I. Parts of the Mekong River can be quite treacherous. There are big boulders that jut out of the river. So many boats have hit those rocks and boulders and people have drowned. And so we were very careful trying to get across without being seen by the soldiers. And then our boat hit a whirlpool. And that spun us around and around and around. And our boat kept filling up with water.

[00:08:01] Of course, we were just little kids and we didn’t know how to swim. And that was a big worry for our parents. But somehow, miraculously, we got out of the whirlpool and we made it across to Thailand. And there was a family living right along the border there, along the river, and they saw us and they took us in because, otherwise, the soldiers would have found us and we would have been arrested. So they hid us for the night. And then the next morning we started walking at about 5 a.m. according to what my mum has told us. And we started walking to Bang Khung, Thailand, which is a soldiers’ camp where the Americans were stationed. My mum thought that we probably walked for about 12 hours.

[00:08:55] My mum was very smart. She had sewn jewelry underneath her clothing, and because she was pregnant, you can’t really tell. And so she was able to sell a few pieces of jewelry. And we bought a piece of land in Thailand and I think they grew rice, bananas, corn, or whatever it is to help them make a living. And after about two years, the Lao government wanted the Thais to send the Lao people back. Otherwise, there was going to be a big conflict between the two countries and that’s when our parents decided, well maybe this isn’t a good idea to be in Thailand and maybe it’s better if we were to go to a refugee camp and apply to go to another country because we were no longer safe.

Kim Thúy [00:09:43] They spent six months living in the refugee camp while they waited to be resettled in either Canada, the U.S., France or Australia.

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:09:53] I don’t think, you know, they thought much about each of the different countries. They just wanted to leave the refugee camp. There was not enough food to eat. There was no running water, and so they wanted to leave as soon as possible. That’s why we decided to come to Canada, because it was the first plane that was coming to get us. We had no information about what life would be like in Canada, except for the fact that it was cold.

Kim Thúy [00:10:17] Stephanie and her family arrived in Montréal in December 1979 with no winter clothing. After about two weeks, they were moved to a small rural community in southern Manitoba. But the remote town didn’t have a lot to offer the family…

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:10:35] We were put in a two-room house with no running water, no electricity, no heat, except for a wood-burning stove. No washroom. And this was located in the church’s graveyard. And, of course, the kids were scared because now we’re living with the ghosts, in the cemetery. And the outhouse was right by the tombstones.

Kim Thúy [00:11:00] And of course, no one in town spoke Lao, and no one in Stephanie’s family spoke English, so they communicated using a Thai-English dictionary. Eventually the family was able to move to a bigger town, where Stephanie’s mother could begin to take English classes.

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:11:17] She met the teachers there, and they were Mennonites and they asked us about our story. And when my mum shared her story, then they said, “oh my goodness, this is terrible. How can we help you and support you?” They were amazing in terms of embracing our family and providing that emotional support that we so needed.

Kim Thúy [00:11:43] I sat down with Stephanie to talk about Hearts of Freedom.

[00:11:47] Stephanie, your story is incredible. What’s it like to hear yourself talk about it?

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:11:53] Every time I hear myself tell the story, I always find something new. And I think about my own mother and the stories that she told us about our escape. And it really highlights the strength and courage that my mother had, but it also brings me back to some of those emotions and I can imagine what our family went through. And I think as children, we, you know, may not experience some of the events in the same way that our parents experience them, but there are definitely some vivid memories that I have of our escape.

Kim Thúy [00:12:38] So what inspired Hearts of Freedom?

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:12:41] It was something that was important to the Southeast Asian communities. They wanted to preserve their stories, their experiences of resettlement and settlement here in Canada. And they wanted to make sure that these personal histories are shared with other people and so many of the people that we interviewed. This was the first time that they had told their stories. So if people wanted to watch the full interview of a particular refugee, they can go on the website and hear their actual voices. We allowed them to speak in the language that they are most comfortable with: English, French, Vietnamese, Lao and Khmer.

Kim Thúy [00:13:26] Why did you choose to include all three countries: Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia?

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:13:32] I think it was important to include all three countries because as a result of the Vietnam War and the spillover of the Vietnam War into Cambodia and Laos, and in 1975, all three countries fell to the communists. And so they experienced similar persecutions, economic changes, and reeducation camps. The Vietnam War is often referred to as the second Indochina War. And with that, Laos has the distinction of being the most heavily bombed country in the world per capita. I believe between 1964 and 1973, there were over 2.5 million tons of bombs that were dropped on Laos, and it’s the equivalent of one plane load of bombs every eight minutes, 24 hours a day, for nine years. And as we know, in Cambodia, there is the killing fields and the infamous Khmer Rouge who killed around 2 million people. And so it was really important to include all three stories to provide a complete picture of what was going on in Southeast Asia during that time.

Kim Thúy [00:14:53] Between 1979 and 1980, Canada took in more than 60,000 Southeast Asian refugees. To what do you attribute this generosity or this openness, I would say?

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:15:08] Yeah, I think during that time, at the height of the Indochinese or the Southeast Asian refugee movements, there was a lot of international media coverage of what was going on in Southeast Asia. And so you heard and saw stories of innocent children and women being killed during that war. You saw images of the boat people, the Vietnamese who were in overcrowded, leaky boats in the South China Sea, and they were being attacked by pirates. And so these stories captured the world’s attention. And I think this led to Canadians and others around the world to respond. And also, there was that famous photo of Kim Phuc, who was a nine-year-old girl, and there were napalm bombs that were dropped in her town and that burned her skin. And so I think people were horrified by that. And also, I think in terms of Canadians, I think many of them recall their own experiences or their own family’s experiences of escape and fleeing from different wars in Europe, including World War II. And I know the Mennonites, for example, also recalled their family’s experiences of escaping the wars and persecution in Europe and Russia, and how they were able to be resettled and settled here in Canada.

Kim Thúy [00:16:40] But then how have Canadian attitudes towards taking in refugees changed since then?

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:16:46] Yeah, I think that’s a complicated question. I think that Canada still resettles refugees and we can see that in terms of the Syrian refugees and more recently Ukrainians. And it’s great that we’re bringing in Ukrainian refugees, but I think we can do more and bring in other refugees from other countries around the world.

Kim Thúy [00:17:11] Would that be the purpose of this exhibition?

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:17:14] Well, I think the purpose of the exhibition is really to tell the stories of Southeast Asian refugees and to preserve that history because it is so important and it’s an important part of Canada’s history. And the refugees who came through that movement have become very successful as Canadian citizens, and they are now contributing to Canada in various ways and contributing to the world as well. When you look at the resilience, the courage, the strength of the Southeast Asian refugees and how they were able to overcome all of these persecution, trauma and obstacles, and how they were able to make a life for themselves and their families here in Canada, and that many of them have come full circle. And so now you hear stories of former Southeast Asian refugees sponsoring refugees from Ethiopia, from Syria, from Afghanistan, and now they’re helping the Ukrainians. And so I think these are really important stories to tell. And also, this was an extraordinary time in Canadian history in terms of the collaboration and partnership that took place between Canadian governments, NGOs and ordinary Canadians.

Kim Thúy [00:18:45] So if you could go back, what would you tell to that little girl in the refugee camp in Thailand all those years ago?

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:18:52] I think I would tell that little girl, you are lucky you are going to Canada, to a place that is going to help you, a place that is going to provide you with opportunities and that you’re going to be able to make a good living and have a good life in Canada. But then I also think, you know, what would I tell the little girls in refugee camps around the world today? And I don’t know if these little girls are going to be as lucky as I was because many of them may not have an opportunity to come to Canada or to other countries. And many of them are living in refugee camps for many, many years. Some of them, you know, were born in the refugee camps. And this is the only thing that they know.

[00:19:39] And when you look at resettlement, the different countries in the world resettle less than 1 percent of the number of refugees that have been identified under the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees mandates. And so we resettle very few refugees. But there is such a great need when we look at the world today. There are 33 million refugees in the world and there are 103 million forcibly displaced people. And so it’s important for us, I think, as a community, as an international community, to do more.

[00:20:18] Yeah and Kim, I would also like to ask you, what would you tell the little girl in the refugee camp in Malaysia?

Kim Thúy [00:20:27] Like you, I don’t really know what I would tell that little girl, but I had a chance to go back to the Red Crescent Center in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, and for a TV show. And because of the TV show, they have gathered all the ID cards that the Red Crescent had done for us. So there were 252,000 cards in that room. And I walked in and my body started to shake, you know, and because I couldn’t believe that we were that many. When you were in a camp, you only know the people who were in the camp with you. And then when you see the numbers, it just … it was mind blowing. And then I start looking for my name and then my family. And I couldn’t find my mother’s name. And in my mind, I was repeating to myself, I said, you know where your mom is, she’s in Montréal. She’s fine, she’s healthy, she’s happy. So why is it important to find this card? And I kept going through the cards and I couldn’t find her. And I started panicking and I started crying. And I became that little girl again, because I didn’t see my parents in the boat for the first day or two. And that fear came back, all of a sudden that you lose your parents, you lose your family. And I didn’t see my brothers either during those first, I think, 24, 36 hours on that boat. And to be in that room again and I just felt like I was just a drop in the ocean.

[00:22:02] Whenever you feel helpless, remind yourself that a mosquito can change the life of a person. When you have a mosquito in your room at night and you try to sleep, it’s very disturbing. And that mosquito has inspired us to find ways to fight back, you know, like mosquito net sprays, incense, all kinds of things. So every time that I feel that I’m too small to change, to make any change, I think about that mosquito theory.

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:22:37] Yeah, that’s a great analogy. Each of these stories are so unique and so powerful, and by listening to even one of these stories, hopefully this can help to create change.

Kim Thúy [00:22:49] I think that your exhibition will help at least — I was going to say — one more girl, but I think it will be way more than one more girl. So thank you for your work.

Stephanie Phetsamay Stobbe [00:22:59] Thank you for having me.

Kim Thúy [00:23:03] Hearts of Freedom exhibition is the result of a partnership with Carleton University, Canadian Mennonite University, and the Canadian Immigration Historical Society — with advisors from the Canadian Museum of History and the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21. If you want to hear all of the interviews, and see photos, research papers, and other materials, go to HeartsofFreedom.org. The exhibition is touring across Canada in 2023 and 2024.

CREDITS:

Kim Thúy: Thanks for listening to Artifactuality, a podcast of the Canadian Museum of History. I’m Kim Thúy.

Artifactuality is produced by Makwa Creative and Antica Productions. Tanya Talaga and Jordan Huffman are the Executive Producers for Makwa. Lisa Gabriele is the Producer, Andrea Varsany is the Associate Producer, and Sophie Dummett is the Researcher for Antica. Laura Regehr and Stuart Coxe are Executive Producers at Antica. Mixing and sound design by Alain Derbez.

Jenny Ellison and Robyn Jeffrey of the Canadian Museum of History are the Executive Producers of this podcast.

Daniel Neill, Researcher, Sport and Leisure, is the Museum’s Podcast Coordinator.

And for information on the Canadian Museum of History’s collection related to the Southeast Asian refugee movement, check out our show notes or go to historymuseum.ca.